User talk:TheRealLurlock/2016 10

Another question!

Sorry to bother you again, but I have another question, this time about patrollers. In the requirements, it states that you must have 250 edits in content namespaces (not userspaces or talk pages). Would edits in the File, Template, and Category namespaces count towards these edits? I'm not sure if these could be called content namespaces or not, which is why I am asking.

Thanks in advance! AlphaAbsol (talk) 05:53, 2 October 2016 (UTC)

I think that's really more of a guideline than an actual rule. It's mainly there to prevent people from trying for Patroller status just by making hundreds of edits to their user page, which has happened (such an applicant would undoubtedly be denied on those grounds). Provided you have shown enough of a history of constructive edits that add value to the site as a whole, and not just vanity-edits or talk page discussions, you're probably fine. I'd say the File namespace definitely counts, provided you're uploading files that are to be used on content namespaces (again, not just pictures for your user page or something). Template and Category I guess counts. To be honest though, I barely admin these days (except in as much as I use my privileges to move and delete stuff without having to put it up for review - it's usually my own mistakes I'm fixing when I do that anyhow). You might as well apply for Patroller and see what happens - I don't really take part in those discussions much. — TheRealLurlock (talk) 03:21, 3 October 2016 (UTC)

Alright, thanks for the help again! AlphaAbsol (talk) 04:23, 3 October 2016 (UTC)

Wilding Run / Wilding Vale Wayshrine

I can't check this myself right now, but the discrepancy here may be in-game. Sometimes, the "POI name" of a Wayshrine and the "Travel name" of a Wayshrine may not match up. For example, when you approach the Wayshrine it says "Wilding Vale Wayshrine Discovered", but when you go to use the wayshrine or port to it, it's labelled as "Wilding Run Wayshrine" (or the other way around). I think the same goes for the Baandari Trading Post wayshrine, and probably the Bloodtoil Valley wayshrine too; one name appears in the top-right corner when you approach it, while the other appears on the wayshrine map. --Enodoc (talk) 08:38, 10 October 2016 (UTC)

I'd say that the name that appears on the map should take precedence, as the "X Wayshrine Discovered" message only appears once, the first time you see it, while the map name remains forever after that. The map name also seems to agree with the activation message text. If this is the case though, we should definitely add a note to the respective pages indicating the discrepancy. I suppose Redirects to Alternate Name would also be appropriate as well. — TheRealLurlock (talk) 13:54, 10 October 2016 (UTC)

Agreed. I can't remember which way around they are right now, but I'll have a look later and make the necessary redirects. --Enodoc (talk) 14:43, 10 October 2016 (UTC)

The alternate name continues to show up even after discovery. ON:Flooded Wayshrine is an example. —Legoless (talk) 14:54, 10 October 2016 (UTC)

Does this occur with any of the non-DLC wayshrines? The DLCs are exceptions to a lot of rules, so they may have to be dealt with slightly differently. — TheRealLurlock (talk) 14:58, 10 October 2016 (UTC)

Yeah, the alternate name pops up in the top right of the screen when you wander near to the Wayshrine. (At least, that's what happens at Baandari and the base game wayshrines; I assume that's also what's happening with Legoless' example? Haven't wandered near that wayshrine myself for a while.) --Enodoc (talk) 15:06, 10 October 2016 (UTC)

Correct —Legoless (talk) 19:59, 10 October 2016 (UTC)

Craglorn Subzones

I noticed you again split the Craglorn list on ON:Delves into Upper and Lower. Like I said in a previous edit summary, there's no need to split them by subzone since it's inconsistent with the rest of the page. Place lists are grouped by zone, and for all purposes Craglorn is a single zone, i.e. there are no transitional loading screens or invisible walls or anything of the sort. The division between Upper and Lower only occurs in the achievements, due solely to the fact that the zone was released in instalments. For categorisation purposes they should remain together; we already have separate lists at ON:Upper Craglorn and ON:Lower Craglorn to denote which is located where, and it's also listed on the individual articles. —Legoless (talk) 09:50, 11 October 2016 (UTC)

It was done so that pages like Craglorn Pilgrim would have somewhere to link to. There's also historical reasons to keep them separate. Unlike, say, Illuvamir and Vafe etc., the two sections were released at separate times, and one was closed off. There are still only 2 ways to get into Upper Craglorn from Lower Craglorn, both of which are clearly definable barriers - a narrow pass in the west and a gate in the east. Certain things still honor these barriers. Anka-Ra Sites, Magical Anomalies, and Group Delves are only found in Lower Craglorn, while Iron Orc Mines are only found in Upper Craglorn. Their achievements and quests are entirely separate from eachother. They are essentially two separate zones that happen to not have a loading screen between them. — TheRealLurlock (talk) 15:28, 11 October 2016 (UTC)

The questline isn't separate, and the removal of the Upper group delves is a recent occurrence. If anything, the two areas have become even more integrated over time with the expansion of Nirncrux availability and now the removal of the level barrier. The two areas already are treated different due to historical reasons, but splitting place lists according to patch releases isn't very helpful. If we did that, then Atelier of the Twice-Born Star would have to be on a whole separate list since it wasn't added until Update 5. If physical barriers really were the defining feature of such lists, then Bangkorai would have to be split in half too since it literally does have an invisible wall in the centre. Overall its just entirely inconsistent. For your achievement purposes, this link works just as well. —Legoless (talk) 16:56, 11 October 2016 (UTC)

Bangkorai doesn't have an entirely separate set of achievements and quests for its sections. Everything in Upper and Lower Craglorn is entirely separate. With the exception of one main quest that connects the two (which exists between every zone - e.g. there's a quest in Auridon that basically just says "Go to Grahtwood"), there is no plot-line connection between the two sections. There isn't even an over-arcing achievement that covers both halves. They're completely separate. They happen to share the name "Craglorn", but then Grahtwood, Greenshade, and Malabal Tor all share the name "Valenwood", but we don't consider them to be one area. The only difference is the lack of load screen. Why does it matter so much if it looks slightly different on the list page? Craglorn IS different. So are Cyrodiil, Coldharbour, and the DLC areas. Not everything is going to look the same because there are just differences in how areas are arranged. — TheRealLurlock (talk) 17:10, 11 October 2016 (UTC)

That's incorrect. Craglorn Completist covers the full storyline, and the Lower quests are actually prerequisites for the Upper ones, unlike a pointer quest to Grahtwood. I can't see why you're trying to compare the zone of Craglorn to Valenwood. I think you may be looking at this from the wrong angle by trying to correlate achievement technicalities with zone mechanics. It's not like other subzones don't have their own achievements too. Craglorn is one area and should be treated as such, regardless of when the content was added. —Legoless (talk) 17:58, 11 October 2016 (UTC)

Main quest aside, we're talking about the Delves, and the Delves ARE COMPLETELY SEPARATE. There is one achievement for the Lower Delves and another for the Upper Delves. There is NO achievement that covers both Upper and Lower Delves. There are NO Group Delves in Upper Craglorn. There is a quest and achievement which involves all of the Upper Delves and ONLY the Upper Delves. This is not the case in e.g. Vafe. The only achievement that involves more than one Delve in Auridon covers all three Subzones, but there is no achievement of this type for Craglorn. It is still more useful to the reader to see them listed separately, regardless of whether it happens to be inconsistent with other zones. Inconsistency is not inherently a bad thing when the game itself is inconsistent in how it treats these things. — TheRealLurlock (talk) 18:30, 11 October 2016 (UTC)

Right, but you're still talking about achievements. ON:Delves is for listing all delves, it's nothing to do with the achievements. I don't see what's wrong with the list on ON:Upper Craglorn since it seems to serve your purpose. The group delves thing is just a coincidence, since all the delves in Upper Crag happen to now be involved in a solo quest and were therefore converted. —Legoless (talk) 18:33, 11 October 2016 (UTC)

I just pointed to five different pages that all need to treat the Upper and Lower delves separately. There is no page anywhere that needs them to be in a single list, so there's no reason for them to ever be in a single list other than "It makes the list look funny if they're separate". The lack of Group Delves in Upper Craglorn is clearly a conscious and intentional design choice. It's not a "coincidence". They made that change for a reason. They could've picked any 6 delves for that achievement but they specifically picked all of the Upper ones. The game treats them separately in every way possible, and I don't see any reason why we shouldn't do the same. — TheRealLurlock (talk) 18:47, 11 October 2016 (UTC)

If you've been following along with Craglorn's development, it should be immensely clear that it is a coincidence. Group delves were only retained where a storyline quest wasn't involved, and it just so happens that all the Upper delves are involved in some way, while a few in Lower Crag aren't. We list delves (and every other place type) together when they're in the same zone, i.e. on the same map in the same overland space. If you'd like to change this, I'd suggest taking it to the CP first, since grouping places by achievements isn't something we've been doing in the namespace. —Legoless (talk) 19:52, 11 October 2016 (UTC)