Skyrim talk:Blood on the Ice/Archive 6

This is an archive of past Skyrim talk:Blood on the Ice discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page, except for maintenance such as updating links.

Quest won't start-looking for answers (Xbox)

I have entered and exited Windhelm hundreds of times now, and I have completed the Stormcloak questline. The only thing I think that I have don wrong is kill Nilsine, which means her mother committed suicide. Is there any way to fix this glitch on the xbox 360? — Unsigned comment by ChaosZeus999 (talk • contribs) at 06:33 on 3 June 2012

In a word: no. Once Nilsine is dead, the quest won't launch no matter what. – Robin Hood↝talk 19:54, 3 June 2012 (UTC)

Then is there any way to get Hjerim with the decorations; I have got the key. — Unsigned comment by ChaosZeus999 (talk • contribs) at 12:03 on 4 June 2012

What about if Arivanya decides to expire, impossible as it should be for her to do so when the Dragonborn is not present to attract a dragon to off her? I thought my issues with quest were merely the high level of my character, but now it seems that at some point after my first attempts to start this Arivanya died. Will the quest still start if you buy the house? Also, on elderscrolls.wikia the page for this quest claims that Calixto will try to murder your wife instead if she is from Windhem (or perhaps just in Windhelm), but it doesn't say if this circumvents the bug with Arivanya having to alive to start the quest.--75.205.50.123 08:40, 17 July 2012 (UTC)

If you buy the house, the quest is supposed to start, but Arivanya dying may not allow this to happen. She needs to be alive for the quest to start, period. According to two editors who have done extensive testing on this quest, the game-data says that the third victim can be any female in Windhelm who isn't dead and isn't essential... so if your wife is alive in Windhelm, and not essential, then it's possible he may try to murder her. However, this wouldn't change the bug with Arivanya having to be alive to start the quest. No matter who the third victim is, Arivanya has to be alive for the quest to trigger initially. ABCface^◥ 11:52, 17 July 2012 (UTC)

(This is the person ABCface replied to) Could Arivanya needing to be alive for the quest to start be added to the page as a bug then, as Viola needing to be alive was? After all, Arivanya is nothing more than a potential victim in this quest. Calixto could and I think should have been scripted to attack any of half a dozen or so equally unimportant targets. There is nothing anywhere in the quest that makes her being next every time after Susanna make sense. I also went back and tried to trigger the quest with my second most recent save with my only character, 25 levels or so ago at level 40. Anyone related to the quest was still alive, including Arivanya. I tried the Brandy-Mug Farm to Windhelm Stable trick and the quest refused to trigger, then I loaded that save again and pickpocketed the key to Hjerim. Still the quest did not trigger when I took every phamplet and read most of them and took and read both journals and took the Strange Amulet. So the quest was dead in the water before Arivanya died. I'm so disappointed that the player house involving quest in Skyrim doesn't function anywhere near as smoothly as the one in Oblivion.--Playerseekingbugs 20:00, 17 July 2012 (UTC)

I fixed the bugs and how-to-trigger sections to make it clearer that Tova and Arivanya needs to be alive. Just for the record; Arivanya IS scripted as the second victim - but only if you choose to turn Wuunferth in. --Krusty 20:29, 17 July 2012 (UTC)

Thank you. I know that she is scripted to die at the beginning of part 2 if it goes there, and that she is the one Calixto tries to kill virtually every time if you confront Wuunferth instead of turning him in, but what I'm saying is that there is no reason for this to be so. If she wasn't going to be made essential then it would have made more sense to script it so that one still-living member from a pool of equally unimportant possible victims could be chosen for Calixto kill.--Playerseekingbugs 20:50, 17 July 2012 (UTC)

There's an awful lot of stuff in SR that 'doesn't have to be so' - still, we'll have to live with it. The biggest bug with this quest is the Tova bug - basically it means you can't play the DB quest line without breaking Blood on the Ice. I can live with the Arivanya one - mostly because I'm the kind of ES player that reloads an earlier save every time an NPC is killed by accident. Anyway, welcome to the site. --Krusty 21:13, 17 July 2012 (UTC)

Thank you for the welcome. I hadn't thought about it, but you're right. I always scour the area for casualties after I encounter a dragon or whatever near a settlement. I reload if the people who were killed are of any importance as shown on their pages on this site, and I have had very few casualties regardless. If she had died while I was in the area, then it is very unlikely that I would have failed to notice; that's what makes her bug so annoying for me. Not only is she virtually unessential to the quest in the dialogue and so on, yet required for it to start, but outside of quests she is most at risk to die since she is regularly walking in and out of the city.--Playerseekingbugs 23:15, 17 July 2012 (UTC)

A different ending.

I did the quest for the third time now, and while it progressed normally, when Wuunferth asked me to track down the "butcher", the quest took a different turnout. Initially the quest marker pointed me to the Stone Quarters, but I met Calixto in front of the Inn and tried to speak to him. He started to run in the direction of Hjerim (with the quest marker pointing to him now) and simply hid there. After waiting three days, I entered Hjerim, he attacked me (but whould not follow me outside) and forced me to kill him there. The quest proceeded as normal. His corpse does not disappear. Was this a bug of some sort or is it simply what happens if you run into him during the day? --Yunvich, 11 June 2012

It sounds like a one-off - as soon as Wuunferth asks you to investigate the Stone Quarter at night, some innocent victim will spawn at the market, and so will Calixto. I have played this quest over 40 times, and never experienced your bug - but if you can recreate it, I'd be more than interested in a step-by-step guide. :) --Krusty 23:24, 11 June 2012 (UTC)

Trouble with Blood on the Ice and Greybeards

With blood on the Ice I have to examine the crime scene but it will not let me. I cannot click the arrow, I have talked to all important individuals, and I can't proceed. Is there something I am missing? How do I fix this? It won't respond when I stand on the crime scene, too.

I am having a similar problem with the greybeards teaching me the final word of force, unrelenting force. They have drawn the word on the floor but I can't seem to get it to trigger. Any insights on how to fix this, please?

128.110.231.127 01:46, 17 June 2012 (UTC)Nynaevei

I don't know about the Greybeards, but if you have already questioned the witnesses and talked to Jorleif and Helgird, your next objective is to follow the trail of blood to Hjerim. --Krusty 06:10, 18 June 2012 (UTC)

Butcher's Journal

It is possible to pickpocket Calixto's key from him, and find a Butcher's Journal in the chest up the ladder in his house. Reading it reveals him to be the murderer - but you are still forced to say you suspect the Court Mage if you go to Jorleif. Bug? — Unsigned comment by 90.230.189.185 (talk) at 20:36 on 22 June 2012

No, it can't be considered a bug - just a small oversight on the developers' part. --Krusty 21:13, 24 June 2012 (UTC)

Quest grinds to a halt after selling the Strange Amulet

After selling the Strange Amulet to Calixto at the suggestion of Jorlief I am unable to talk to the court wizard about anything other than Destruction training and buying items. The only other quests I've done in Windhelm are the Dark Brotherhood intro and the Dark Brotherhood quest where you kill the other Shattershield daughter, so when I started Blood in the Ice, Tova had killed herself. I even tried pickpocketing the Strange Amulet off of Calixto to confront the Jarl's wizard with it but I still get no dialog options but I am able to sell it back to Calixto and pickpocket it from him an unlimited number of times, which is kind of funny. Any ideas? — Unsigned comment by 24.8.243.135 (talk) at 07:32 on 23 June 2012

You have to speak to Viola Giordano for the quest to advance. --Krusty 20:53, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

Missing Viola

At segment of the quest when Jorleif directs you to speak with Calixto and Viola. Map markers only show Jorleif and Calixto....not Viola. Spoke to Calixto and have waited for days trying to speak with Viola...she is not to be found. I've played the game numerous times and this has never happened before. Checked inside house, she is not there. Stuck....answers? 71.59.5.163 21:14, 23 June 2012 (UTC)mjo

Lucilla is his sister?

Okay, I have to ask - Lucilla is his sister? Because from his journal, she definitely sounds like a lover. He refers to being able to "hold" her, and refers to her as his "love". I wouldn't be surprised that Bethsheda more or less put at least one incestous relationship in the game (there might be others I don't know about yet, I guess), but it doesn't indicate her relation as a sister in the journal. Is this something that comes up if you talk to him other than for the quest? FWIW, I'm running mods, but I'm pretty sure none of them interfere with the journal's contents. — Unsigned comment by 68.195.104.86 (talk) at 06:59 on 1 July 2012

Yeah, it comes up in conversation with him. He has a line of dialogue which says "My sister and I once traveled the world to assemble our collection. Such adventures we had!" ABCface^◥ 12:23, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

Calixto, Jorleif, and Viola no help

Make sure to have a copy of the butcher's flyers when you speak with Jorleif. — Unsigned comment by 76.224.209.51 (talk) at 01:36 on 6 July 2012

The body is there, but no one will talk to me

I entered Windhelm, and found the body in the graveyard. But the NPCs standing around the body won't talk to me, and no guard pulls me aside to talk to me about it. The body and NPCs just stay there 24/7, with no way to start or progress the quest. — Unsigned comment by 75.162.204.134 (talk) at 21:34 on 12 July 2012

That can happen if you manage to trigger the graveyard scene and then complete Battle for Windhelm. Of course, I don't know if that is the case for you, but you will not be able to start the quest anymore. Sorry. --Krusty 23:10, 12 July 2012 (UTC)

This issue happened with me - however, I was still able to start the quest by breaking into Hjerim. Just lockpick your way in there and hopefully the quest will still start. 68.205.17.186 00:07, 13 July 2012 (UTC)

Still no guard (Resolved)

I created a new character recently, and after playing for a few hours I realized I hadn't been anywhere close to Windhelm yet, and so I thought I would try to trigger this quest. I am on the 360, have done no dark brotherhood quests, no civil war quests, so all the necessary NPCs are alive and the guards are default "Windhelm Guards."
I've never gotten this quest to work before, and I would really like to.
I saved before getting into a pay carriage to take me to Windhelm so I could start over. I showed up in the Windhelm Stables, and so I assume my variable was at 1 at that point. I walked back and forth between the stables and Brandy-Mug Farm (as the page says) 3 times to bring it to four. I entered the Windhelm gates at 7:03 PM, within the time frame. Nothing. I thought that maybe you had to have actually been in the city at least once, and so I left, walked back and forth two more times for good measure (putting it at 6 by my count) and walked in the front gates around 8:30 PM. Lo and behold, the body was there, for the first time in 10 characters, but there was no guard to talk to.
Can someone please, please help? Scum 00:21, 13 July 2012 (UTC)
Went through the same steps again, still no guard. Scum 00:29, 13 July 2012 (UTC)
If you can believe it, on the third try the guard was there. Scum 00:36, 13 July 2012 (UTC)

Glad you were able to work around that, as I have no idea what to say in your case. No one else (and I've read most of the archive as well) seems to have encountered a bug with the guard not showing up with so many other factors that influence quest left unactivated.--Playerseekingbugs 21:24, 17 July 2012 (UTC)

Arivanya

Why is the fact that Arivanya is required for the quest to start, yet is not essential and is quite possibly infamous for managing to die on people not listed in the bugs section? I discovered today that she may be the only reason my mid-60's level character cannot start this hazardous quest that will interfere with Hjerim. I could almost swear she was alive when I first tried to start the quest, but now I find somewhere in the dozens of hours since then she managed to die, even though she was never present when I fought a dragon and I never saved any of the rampages I took in frustration after trying to start this quest many times. I really hope they can make a patch that allows another target to be chosen. There is no reason she has to be the one Calixto tries kill or succesfully kills via scripting. Therefore, it's kind of a bug that she's even required. — Unsigned comment by 75.205.50.123 (talk) at 07:49 on 17 July 2012

It is mentioned in the How to Start the Quest section that she is needed to trigger the quest but not marked essential. — Kimi the Elf ^{(talk | contribs)} 07:55, 17 July 2012 (UTC)

I knew it was in that section, I just felt that it should also be in bugs section like Viola, and after I accidentally made a similar comment on another part of the talk page krusty added it to the bugs section as well.--Playerseekingbugs 21:26, 17 July 2012 (UTC)

Big problems with this quest

So, I did the whole first part of this quest with putting Wuurnferth in jail. I just came back to Windhelm and noticed Arivanya dead to the left of Candlehearth Hall, I also found out that Tova has already killed herself in her home and I'm stuck on the quest for patrolling the Stone Quarter because he never shows up and I'm not sure if there's any way to continue the quest at this point. I've also bought Hjerim and cleaned up the mess and redecorated the place so he never shows up there or in his store. — Unsigned comment by 75.138.240.49 (talk) at 07:05 on 18 July 2012

I assume you talked to Wuunferth already then? I don't know what to say if Calixto has somehow vanished. I know he often wanders the city at night and he always has dinner in Candlehearth Hall. He should pick a random female npc and attack her. You may have to try to reload to a save from before you redecorated or perhaps even bought the house. I really don't know what else to say. I'm guessing you didn't relize beforehand that there is a part 2 if you don't bother to confront Wuunferth yourself. It's always good to check the wikis frequently when you're playing a TES game, because you never know what bugs you might run into if you don't look ahead. Especially in Skyrim.--Playerseekingbugs 17:22, 21 July 2012 (UTC)

Tried all Triggers and Still Will Not Start (360)

I stopped playing for a few months because I was so frustrated with all the glitches and was hoping that by now Bethesda would have solved all the problems with this quest since everyone wants the nicest house in the game and the only one I don't own. I completed the dark brotherhood so that girl is dead but Jorleif won't sell me the house EVEN WHEN I HAVE THE MONEY!!! After finding Jorleif utterly useless and entering and exiting Windhelm hundreds of times I finally gave up and picked the lock to Hjerim and got in. Even after taking the two butchers journals, all the fliers, and the strange amulet in Hjerim I went into Calixto's creepy shop and broke into his chest to even add the final butchers journal to my possession and even then THE QUEST WILL NOT TRIGGER. I know exactly who the killer is and I should be able to turn him in even though I never investigated the crime scene in the graveyard but with all of this done you'd think that someone would arrest the man. This is just so frustrating and I want this house. Please help me! — Unsigned comment by 24.93.149.39 (talk) at 03:15 on 23 July 2012

Sorry, but you will not be able to start the quest if you have completed the DB quest Mourning Never Comes, no matter what you try. See this section for details. --Krusty 06:56, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

The patch to end all patches for this quest.

I know Bethesda has forums for bug reporting and stuff, but there were only two topics on the 360 forums (I didn't check the other platforms yet) for Blood on the Ice there surprisingly. The oldest of which is very thorough in it's investigation of bugs (which can be found here[1] ). I think that what needs to be fixed with this quest and suggestions on how the fixes should best work for the player should be discussed, and topics about the results should then be posted in the appropriate place for each platform and then we can only hope Bethesda can do something with them towards fixing this quest once and for all.

To start, the biggest issues that are easy to figure out are that Tova and Arivanya are still required for the quest to even have a chance of triggering, yet they can both die on the unwary player and block the quest before you even think about doing it. I think it would be best to remove both of these npc's from the trigger requirements similar to how Viola was removed, and have a pool of potential victims in Windhelm from which a living candidate will selected and attacked by Calixto in place of just Arivanya. Preferably those fixes would work for characters made before the patch of course.

The second issue is the greatest mystery of the quest. I imagine the somewhat unique triggering mechanisms of this quest as a terribly complex 'machine' for opening a 'box' (the box equaling the quest of course). Unfortunately, this machine is actually quite unreliable and can break even when it's just winding up if left to sit for very long. There needs to be a 'crowbar' available in case the machine fails. And a new dialogue option when speaking to Jorleif or whoever the current Jarl of Windhelm is when Hjerim is supposed to become available for purchase (or perhaps before) should be that 'crowbar'. The 'crowbar' should disregard the rules the 'machine' follows for opening the 'box' and just open it.

I would like opinions and suggestions before I log onto the blog and post the topics, but I can't imagine a simpler way to fix biggest pains with this quest. The Strange Amulet problem also needs fixing I would think, but since quest items don't weigh anything, and the Necromancer's Amulet is actually worse than what you can make yourself with a Grand soul at 100 enchanting with applicable perks in enchanting, I don't think it's anywhere near as big a problem as the stuff I discussed above.--Playerseekingbugs 08:41, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

Before doing anything else (especially before relying on an investigation from back in december), you should read our own investigations here and here. Additionally, I tested a few Calixto-related bugs and posted them here and a tiny bit of Viola-stuff here. As far as I'm concerned, our notes and bugs section on the article pretty much covers the problems - and the bugs needed to be fixed by a patch. If there are any new additions, we should just make a new investigation ourselves - also, I wouldn't hold my breath for Beth to actually fix anything else about this quest. --Krusty 09:23, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

Edit: I think the patching would be more efficient if people would make an effort not to just post a bug per topic and instead test what the bug relates to like that person did in December (and he found many of the problems that people here seem to have, and half of the stuff he figured out has still not been fixed). I have yet to see another topic that thorough in my scans of Bethesda's forum for the game, although it probably doesn't help that I'm not looking the section most likely to have thorough evaluations (the PC platform section). I feel like fans may have brought it upon themselves by not telling them about all the bugs efficiently. Otherwise, I think Arivanya and Tova would have been fixed when Viola was. They should be easier to fix with their extremely minor parts in the quest, after all.

I know there are many bugs with this quest still, but the most common problem has still not been effectively addressed: it's so easy to make it impossible to trigger BOTI if you're not paranoid about what happens in Windhelm. And even then it often fails. That's why they need to make an alternate dialogue trigger. The deaths of Tova and Arivanya have been shown not to matter if they happen even right after the quest triggers, and neither should whatever hidden bugs prevent many people from triggering this as intended. Many bugs with the quest after it triggers can be worked around (as far as I can recall) or likely fixed with a reload prior to triggering the quest, so a good multi-bird, one stone solution would be an alternate trigger. Or am I seriously mistaken?

And a dialogue trigger could work in various ways. The best might be that Jorleif of the Jarl tells you that they could use helping cracking the case, and tells you they'll inform you by courier when the next body shows up. This could use a generic 3-day trigger, then make the scene appear on the third night and a courier goes to find you to make sure you know. Or they could give you a copy of the key to Hjerim and tell you to check it out for clues (thus jumping to about the same point you're supposed get when Jorleif does allow you to buy the house and/or you enter it for the first time). What do you think? I would like to encourage them to make a reliable patch for the biggest remaining issues to this quest, and making sure there shouldn't be any quest and home breaking bug left to fix would help probably.--Playerseekingbugs 20:29, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

And I have read most of the stuff at those links previously. Beyond the Viola bugs only being fixed when you have either not triggered the quest, not triggered the point at which they appear in the quest, or are using a brand new character; the strange amulet not being replaced if you don't sell it and Arivanya's replacements not being alive are the big post-triggering issues that (unless I'm forgetting something?). I find it unlikely that someone would save killing so many non-essential characters that there is no one among three women (some of which never leave building interiors that do not contain conflict unless the player starts it for the heck of it) for Calixto to attack left. I would guess that the vast majority of people that would like to do this quest have simply not been able to trigger it and it's because Arivanya or Tova have died, or the mechanism itself has broken down as it did for me and some other people who have posted on this talk page. A reliable alternate triggering method would be just about the best thing Bethesda could add to this quest. No other quest has required a how to start section as detailed an cautionary as this one, and no other quest I've encountered can be relied on NOT to trigger with little to no intentional effort from the player.--Playerseekingbugs 21:09, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

Sorry if I'm repeating the gist of some of my ideas. I'm just so frustrated to have encountered something so extremely buggy that I'm mad at myself as a bit of a perfectionist for not choosing to attempt this quest sooner. I've encountered multiple bugs that threatened to block my progress in the main quest and that I thought would leave my character forever unable to wait or sleep, but I triumphed over those problems. This quest is in a class all its own as far as I'm concerned, because I managed to do pretty much every quest I found in Oblivion and Skyrim so far, save this one. I can't even try to, because the game won't let me. It's so infuriating to walk into Windhelm at night and see Silda almost mocking me as she warms her hands by a fire. To be reminded that it's there almost every time I talk to someone in Windhelm, and to see the movements that hint at what will happen makes me feel like I'm being mocked. It's no wonder I keep doing unsaved killing sprees in Windhelm.--Playerseekingbugs 03:31, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

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