Lore talk:Mer

Man Articles

If we have Mer and Beastfolk articles shouldn't we have a man article or just group them all together in something like a residents of Tamriel article?Varus Vantinius 12:20, 20 October 2010 (UTC)

It might be worth it, I suppose, as long is it adequately describes the aboriginal human tribes of Tamriel as well as the Atmora theory. I'd call it Lore:Humans rather than just Man. rpeh •T•C•E• 10:04, 21 October 2010 (UTC)

Shouldn't Bretons be listed here as well? — Unsigned comment by 50.102.21.25 (talk) on 7.09 16th july 2011

Bretons are a race of humans so they would not belong on the Mer article. If the article for humans had been created they would belong there, but for now you'll just have to look here. Masterlocksmith 08:50, 16 July 2011 (UTC)

Bretons are not purely human, they have a shared nordic and aldmeric ancestry. Thus why they are called manmer. If there was a corresponding human article, I would suggest they be listed here as well as there.

I also think it's important to point out that the chimer did not disappear or die out per se, but rather are the ancestors of the dunmer. I also think in the same sense something should be mentioned about the aldmer as being the ancestors of all mer. I'm terrible at wiki-ing which is why I'm not making the changes myself. I'm not even sure how to sign this post. — Unsigned comment by 50.102.21.25 (talk) at 12:57 on 16 July 2011 (GMT

The Bretons are considered to be men, despite their mixed ancestry. As for the Aldmer and Chimer not "dying out", you could say the same for the Ayleids and the Falmer. In any case, they're gone now, and in biological terms that means they're extinct. --Legoless 15:36, 16 July 2011 (UTC)

A Breton is a man like a mixed person is black. You can consider an inaccuracy to be true all you want, it doesn't make it any less inaccurate. — Unsigned comment by 50.102.21.25 (talk) on 19 July 2011

(←) Drawing parallels between the real and game worlds is a futile exercise. Bretons are men, not mer. Deal with it. rpeh •T•C•E• 08:25, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

I'm not arguing that Bretons aren't men. I'm only saying they are also, in part, to a much lesser degree, elves. Because they are, it is not only obvious it is a defining factor of what a Breton is. They're magical creatures to an extent, and the only human race with a natural magickal affinity. This is because elves are magical creatures, and a breton is a tiny bit elvish.

It is mentioned several times on the breton page, I just don't see why this page shouldn't mention bretons as distant relations of elves. The page is kind of sparse in any case, I don't imagine more information about elvish history and lineage would be a detraction. — Unsigned comment by 50.102.26.108 (talk) at 23:47 on July 23, 2011

I've added a stub template to the page, as it needs a lot of work. In a completely comprehensive article, you would be right in expecting Bretons to be mentioned. --Legoless 11:39, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

Lifespan

Has the lifespan for the Mer races ever been mentioned? I assume it's greater than that of a human but have we ever been told, how greater it is? --Pin-Pin-Ire 18:35, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

Older than 150 years to the very least. SFK363 19:58, 17 May 2012 (UTC)

I think something about their lifespan should be added here. There are examples of elves living 1000 years or more (only wizards?), but commonly it's a lot less. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Interview_with_a_Dark_Elf Also "Katisha's face briefly wore the envious, wistful look humans got when contemplating the thousand-year lifespan Elves had been granted by the gods. True, few ever actually lived that long as disease and violence took their respective tolls. But they could. And one or two of them actually did." from The Real Barenziah. Barenziah herself must have lived at least 400-something years. Class and magic ability probably makes a big difference. Merfnad (talk) 17:25, 14 November 2012 (GMT)

Edits

I have chosen to not transclude the sections because the transclusion would include pictures that are not lined up to the sections properly. If someone could make it so those pictures would be like that, then I would be happy to make the page full of transclusions instead. I would appreciate if before anyone changes them to tranclusions they put their reasons here so I don't undo their edit(s). -- Ad Intellige Mecum loqui 22:28, 11 April 2013 (GMT)

We have spent quite a bit trying to fix it, so I will undo your edit. The images should now no longer be transcluded. Jeancey (talk) 23:21, 11 April 2013 (GMT)

Worship me for I have fudged a fix. Silence is Golden^{Break the Silence} 23:28, 11 April 2013 (GMT)

Still borken on Online race pages. But we will let master wizard Jak deal with that. Jeancey (talk) 23:29, 11 April 2013 (GMT)

The ammount of births

As of ESO, there are multiple mentions of rather big elven families, consisting of multiple siblings, which would at least partially go against quote from Real Barenziah that refers to elven fertility. As the page states: The average elven woman can conceive twice, but no more than four (and even that is considered rare). Following ESO characters (possibly more) state things that are either miraclous multiple twins births or simply ignoring the previously establishing lore and as such retconing it:

-Online:Eveli_Sharp-Arrow- A Bosmer who mentions having 11 other siblings and mentions that is common family size among Bosmer.

-ON:Mirri Elendis- A Dunmer whose father is referred as seventh son, of a seventh son and she herself states that she has numerous siblings though she never specifies the ammount.

-ON:Pentarch Kovan Indoril- Another Dunmer who calls himself sixth son out of eight in the family Tyrvarion (talk) 17:03, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

Lifespans (again)

This page and the individual race pages both give elvish lifespans as 200-300 years. However the only listed source for this is an ESO Ask Us Anything (not even a Loremaster's Archive). According to the wiki's standard pactice, actual in-game evidence of eg Barenziah and Symmachus living 400+ years should take precedence. Neither are/were dedicated mages so it seems unlikely that they extended their lifespans as Telvanni Masters do. In Tribunal Barenziah appears elderly but not decrepit. It would be more accurate to say mer typically live 400-600 years, but can reach 1000 years in rare instances (without magical enhancement).--Draugluin (talk) 12:02, 12 July 2023 (UTC)

If you have a better source, then that's fair enough. Anecdotal evidence like Barenziah does not really trump the ESO Q&A in my opinion. —⁠Legoless (talk) 12:42, 12 July 2023 (UTC)

I would argue that the historical evidence for Symmachus and Barenziah being born in the late Second Era is about as reliable as lore gets. The fact that they ruled Morrowind for most of the Third Era seems to be universally accepted; there's certainly no mention of any contradictory claims, which is rare in itself. Bethesda themselves have stated that in-game lore should take precedence over out-of-game develpoer statements.--Draugluin (talk) 13:06, 12 July 2023 (UTC)

Sure, but those are just two specific examples. A counter-example would be Varel Morvayn, who doesn't appear to have what we would consider a typical elven lifespan. These are not good sources, as they require us to infer lifespans based on an individual rather than citing a direct answer to the question. We have Interview with a Dark Elf and Ask Us Anything: Variety Pack 4, which, while not ideal references, provide direct answers from the developers in regards to elven lifespans. Unless there's a better in-game source that answers the same question, I don't think we can discount the existing information. —⁠Legoless (talk) 13:15, 12 July 2023 (UTC)

For all we know, those individuals lived longer than average due to magic use and the hygiene that they could afford. I say this to demonstrate why anecdotes cannot be used to make broad generalizations. It is not a maxim which should need to be argued. -Dcsg (talk) 15:40, 12 July 2023 (UTC)

Interview with a Dark Elf and the Ask Us Anything don't even agree with each other. Skyrim features many Dunmer who are still relatively young but have clear memories of the Red Year (admittedly there's also one who was a small child at the time but is now an old woman). Also there's Karliah, who must have been born in the late Third Era (if her story is true). Maybe we could take refuge in vagueness: 'Mer can live for several hundred years, but typically less than a thousand.' In any case, 400 years is too far outside the 200-300 year figure to be simply the result of privilege, whereas Barenziah's aged appearance in Tribunal suggests her lifetime has not been extended magically.--Draugluin (talk) 03:01, 13 July 2023 (UTC)

The fact that we currently have a select few sources on this page that we consider the "right" sources is ridiculous and not how we ever address conflicting accounts such as this on the wiki, Real Barenziah says elves have a lifespan of one thousand years as opposed to interview with a dark elf that are far far lower. Leramil the Wise says in the new Necrom chapter that her age of "well over 100" is young for an Altmer and there’s many many more sources that touch on elven lifespans in some way or another. We need to represent the variety of sources and not give any key weight to any one account.Dcking20 (talk) 20:03, 14 July 2023 (UTC)

Well said!--Draugluin (talk) 03:00, 15 July 2023 (UTC)