Lore talk:Lefthanded Elves

prod

I have removed the prod. Given that we have gotten a lot of new info about Yokuda in ESO, it is entirely possible we will get new information about them. Jeancey (talk) 03:48, 9 June 2014 (GMT)

I also contest this deletion. Small pages aren't a problem, and lorespace in particular is purposefully designed to be easily transcluded onto larger articles. No reason to prod or merge at all. —Legoless (talk) 15:57, 9 June 2014 (GMT)

They are mentioned in the loading screens in ESO. Just as a followup that are, in fact, mentioned again and that the page shouldn't be deleted. Jeancey (talk) 16:39, 24 July 2014 (GMT)

UOL

UOL should only be used when it is explaining In-game things. The size of the Lefthanded Elves empire is not an In-Game anything, thus that UOL is inappropriate. In addition, ALL UOL is supposed to have a talk page before being added, which people have just been ignoring, so I'm going to start this talk page post so we can discuss whether the other UOL added is appropriate. If UOL should be added to this page, it should follow the policies that we have previously decided on from UESPWiki:Lore. Jeancey (talk) 17:42, 7 August 2020 (UTC)

This all seems like information important to expanding on the Lefthanded Elves and should be restored. Can't understand the objection here, UOL is not for "explaining in-game things", it is to "provide a rounder background". With so little other info available on this race, it seems completely appropriate. —⁠Legoless (talk) 00:36, 8 August 2020 (UTC)

Gonna have to agree with lego, I don’t think Uol should ever be the basis for an articles existence, but imo is well used when fleshing out things that have little info otherwise like the left handed elves. Reminds me of my additions to the Tosh Raka article, as it stood he had only a solitary in game source, but with some Uol the page was able to be fleshed out a bit. (Dcking20)

Agreed with the two aforementioned comments. There wasn’t much UOL info added, one statement said that the Orichalc Tower was involved in their wars (a name confirmed official in-game by the Augur of the Obscure), another statement that they had a large empire (we knew they lived on a whole continent), and another that the Yokudans “drowned them” (like what happened with the continent).

If this is about how UOL must relate to in-game info, then I believe the issue would be a misunderstanding of the policy, which is more about not creating articles based off things that exist only within UOL (like how one can’t create a page for Juban-Sul from C0DA, since he only appears in that book), the Lefthanded Elves already exist in-game. If it’s about stating how UOL info can only add info onto in-game statements, it seems to be quite the paradox, since I recall UOL citations being removed after new in-game lore further cements info first introduced by UOL. The Rim of the Sky (talk) 01:05, 8 August 2020 (UTC)

Update: With what Jeancey told me and Legoless to clear things up regarding the page, the other two points seemed to be agreed upon as fine, and we should instead discuss the topic of the Lefthanded Elves’ empire. The source comes from Cyrus’ Meeting with Vivec where one character mentions the Left-Handers having an empire four times the size of what the white king’s (Tiber Septim’s) would be at the time, presumably all of Tamriel if the dominion was conquered by that point. The issue seems to arise from Yokuda not being four times the size of Tamriel, I would like to point out though, Yokuda was originally much larger (though we don’t know how big) and the islands on the Redguard map are usually considered what’s left of it.

I think at the very least we should say “The Left-handed Elves had a large empire.” Any more indication of its size would be worded like “it was allegedly four times the size of the Septim Empire” or “it was described as supposedly being four times the size of the empire” etc. That info would be optional to add, but I think all we do need is the line I wrote at the beginning of this paragraph just about them having empire. I’d also like to propose adding a small note (not directly related to the info about the empire) about how “Elven influence from when Yokuda suffered under Elven rule may have found its way into Yokudan language.” from the Redguard Forum Madness. The Rim of the Sky (talk) 19:15, 8 August 2020 (UTC)

I think "The left-handed elves had a large empire" is supportable. I don't think we should even allege that it was four times the size of Septim's empire, as We know (roughly) the size of Nirn from the various globes in several games, and we know the size of Tamriel in relation to those globes. I definitely think that saying their empire is four times the size of Septims empire is logically inconsistent with what we are presented with in-game regarding the size of tamriel in-relation to all the other continents (mainly, that it is larger or equal in size to all the other major land masses, past or present, since the breakup of Aldmeris).

In addition, I think the support is clearly present for the other two points, but I'd like to wait the full week that is usually given for these sorts of discussions (so Friday the 14th) before we add them back to the page. I wouldn't be opposed to a "snowball" argument however and adding them back sooner. Jeancey (talk) 22:21, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

Sounds good to me. While the size of Tamriel on Nirn is not fully known (I would not count this globe since it is evidently Tamriel-centric) even in extreme depictions of Yokuda like LadyN's map, it is at most 2 times the size of Tamriel, so saying it is four times the size has implications better off not worth putting on the page. I'd considered everything settled. The Rim of the Sky (talk) 22:18, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

Page Name

It might be worth a consideration to rename the page to Kanuryai as per Cries from Empty Mouths — Varederil, Psijic Order. All other 'Mer' use their endonym, so this should be consistent for the so-called Lefthanded Elves too. TheynT (talk) 09:01, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

Agreed for the consistency.Tyrvarion (talk) 14:31, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

That would make sense. I was originally on the fence, but then I remembered Ayleids are in a similar boat. It would be good to rename it. The Rim of the Sky (talk) 17:24, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

I think Lefthanded Elves is the more frequent term and therefore better, for instance we use Ayleid Empire instead of Imperatum Saliache. Mindtrait0r (talk) 23:10, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

I would agree with waiting for a bit. If ESO consistently starts referring to them that way, then I would agree with the rename, but if it's just a single reference and all others refer to them as Lefthanded Elves or Sinestral, I don't think it's appropriate to rename the page given the general wiki guidelines about using the Common Name. All the other elves use those terms for themselves consistently enough to be widely known, but this definitely wouldn't fit that. Jeancey (talk) 00:06, 8 June 2024 (UTC)

I think that the Lefthanded Elves / Sinistral Mer is a better title. Naming this “Kanuryai” seems overly obscure since they are only called this once. But more than this, I think the relevant consistency is not it being an endonym, but rather it being the most common title for them. For example, the Snow Elves have the title “Snow Elf” instead of “Falmer”, and the Orcs have “Orc” instead of “Orsimer”. Also, on the topic of endonyms, Argonians call themselves the “Saxhleel” but the page title is named “Argonians”. BananaKing5 (talk) 18:13, 8 June 2024 (UTC)

A big part of this is also that names like "Lefthanded" and "Sinistral" are more metaphorical commentary on their "evil nature" rather than proper names, as these names were given to them by their enemies. It appears ESO is trying to move away from it as "Lefthanded Elves" never really rolled well off the tongue to begin with, so they tried Sinistral for a couple years, which (while slightly better phonetically) still didn't flow very well. Kanuryai is their attempt at giving them their first proper name, like how they renamed "Bird men" to a more proper "Birdfolk" in the same update. While Kanuryai has only appeared once so far, I think it's important to remember why they started using it now and that their situation isn't the exact same as other races. Its also important to remember that there's very few sources on the LH elves to begin with so even if there's only a few occurrences of Kanuryai, its of quite a bit of weight as its still one of the main sources we now have on them. The Rim of the Sky (talk) 19:59, 8 June 2024 (UTC)

I can see both points of view, but I would just like to point out a few things. In the text Systres History: Volume 2, it says, "These islands had long served as refuges for exiles, pirates, and the bedraggled remnants of the Lefthand Empire—better known as the Sinistral Elves." In Daggerfall, elves were originally called different names. According to The Wild Elves, it states, "the Ayleids, commonly called the Wild Elves. While three races of elven stock, Salache (or High), Boiche (or Wood), and Moriche (or Dark)," until the text was retconned in Morrowind. In the article Snow Elf, it says, "Much as 'High Elf' and 'Wood Elf' are interchangeable with 'Altmer' and 'Bosmer' respectively, 'Falmer' is really just another term for 'Snow Elf.' However, most people, even the Snow Elves themselves, demonstrated a preference for 'Snow Elf'." Saxhleel are known as "Argonians" by non-Argonians and fans. By the way, "Saxhleel" is a recent term introduced in Skyrim. In the Redguard article, it says, "Imperial scholars concluded that the term 'Redguard' originated as a phonetic corruption of 'Ra Gada.'" "Yokudan" is essentially their original name, and in Skyrim, a whole bunch of Redguards call themselves "Redguards" when the topic is brought up. In-game, the character creation for every single game consistently uses the terms "Redguard," "High Elf," "Dark Elf," "Wood Elf," "Orc," and "Argonian," so the general populace, aka fans, know them by those names. The devs should have introduced the terms "Sinistral" and "Kanuryai" from the start so this discussion would never happen, but here we are. By the way, a bunch of elf lore articles should have been named after their popularly recognized exonyms (Which have been their names ever since Arena) from the start, so this discussion would never happen, but here we are. To clarify, a bunch of lore pages for the Elves are named after their retconned endonyms (Which were introduced in Morrowind), i.e. Altmer, Dunmer, and Bosmer, not their exonyms, "High Elf," "Dark Elf," and "Wood Elf," which are not consistent with all their game articles, i.e. Dark Elf, Wood Elf, High Elf, etc. The inconsistency between the names of the Elves lore articles and game articles is downright mind-boggling. Personally, I believe they should all be renamed to be consistent with the game articles. With all that said, I'm in the camp of changing the article's name from "Lefthanded Elves" to "Sinistral Elf" because it rolls off the tongue better, or "Kanuryai" for consistency, and if my earlier suggestion never comes to fruition. --KevinM^(talk) 08:55, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

I'm leaning toward the option to wait until there is at least one more source to confirm that ESO is moving forward with the new name.

And as an aside @KevinM, here's the relevant discussion for why gamespace elf pages are named as they are in-game. They all used to be Altmer, Bosmer, Dunmer. I believe Lore pages were left as is because those are the more proper names and appear fairly often in game books and dialogue. The others you mentioned like Saxhleel are less common so I doubt they were ever taken into consideration. —Dillonn241 (talk) 23:58, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

@Dillonn241 Thank you for clearing that up. Anyway, since Kanuryai is the new endonym for the Sinistral Elves, I believe this article should be renamed to Kanuryai for consistency. If not now, then when a second source uses that term, the renaming should happen. --KevinM^(talk) 02:00, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

I agree with Dillon and Kevin. Lefthanded Elves are an obscure enough topic to begin with; if they and this new term for them come to more prominence, I would agree with a move to the endonym. Too early to say at this stage I think, so better to keep the article at the more common/existing name. —⁠Legoless (talk) 09:31, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

(←) Looks like the consensus is that for now the page will remain named Lefthanded Elves, and if Kanuryai appears again in future sources, we will move it under that name as it will have more occurrences when the time comes. The Rim of the Sky (talk) 21:20, 18 June 2024 (UTC)

Just as a note about "there being very few sources overall for lefthanded elves". There is one single mention of Kanuryai in ESO, just added, and 22 instances of lefthanded elves, 10 instances of Sinistral, 5 instances of lefthanders and 3 instances of sinestral. Clearly lefthanded elves is the correct term at this time, though that could change, it hasn't yet. This is just in case anyone wanted the actual numbers. Jeancey (talk) 21:49, 18 June 2024 (UTC)

Ah yes by few sources overall I meant that before High Isle there was only about 8 sources on them regardless of what name they went by, and before ESO itself there was just 1, so much of the info we have on them is relatively recent. It is helpful to know the of how many instances their different names appear in so thank you for that. The Rim of the Sky (talk) 22:03, 18 June 2024 (UTC)